Ep 76: Inside a Public Records Crisis and How to Prepare for One

What happens when a routine day on campus turns into a viral public records crisis? In this episode of Higher Ed Conversations, GradComm CEO Cheryl Broom sits down with Katherine Hansen, Executive Director of College Relations and Marketing at Renton Technical College, to unpack a situation that many higher ed professionals aren’t prepared for but should be. Hansen shares a firsthand account of dealing with a “First Amendment auditor” who visited campus, recorded interactions, and published highly edited videos that sparked a wave of harassment, public records requests, and reputational challenges. From the initial encounter to multiple follow-up visits, Katherine walks us through how her team responded, what they learned, and the critical policy and procedural changes they implemented to better protect their staff and institution moving forward.

What You’ll Learn:

• What “First Amendment auditors” are and why they target colleges
• How a single interaction can escalate into a full-blown reputational crisis
• The legal realities of recording in public spaces 
• The hidden risks of internal communication tools like Teams 
• Smart policy updates that can protect your institution and your people

Thanks for listening!

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Higher Ed Conversations is hosted by Cheryl Broom, CEO of GradComm, a marketing and branding agency specializing in community colleges and public education.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Cheryl Broom: Katherine, I'm so happy to have you here today.

[00:00:03] Katherine Hansen: Thanks for having me.

[00:00:05] Cheryl Broom: Well, let's start off, tell me a little bit about yourself and the college that you work at.

[00:00:09] Katherine Hansen: It is Katherine Hedland Hanson. I'm the Executive Director of College Relations and Marketing at Renton Technical College, which is outside of Seattle. For those people who don't know where Renton is, and I've worked here about seven years before that I worked in private higher ed, and before that I was a journalist.

[00:00:28] Cheryl Broom: Oh, great. So what we're talking about today, I mean, you've kind of got experience from all angles. Yeah. Well, I saw Katherine speak at a conference about a situation that unfolded one snowy day on our campus and thought this is something that every listener to this podcast. We'll wanna hear and learn from.

[00:00:47] Cheryl Broom: So let's start right from the beginning. Just, just dive right into your story and tell us what happened.

[00:00:55] Katherine Hansen: So unlike the rest of the country, that's, deals with snow a lot we don't here in Seattle and it kind of shuts things down. So it had, we'd had a few snow days that week. So most of us were working from home on this particular Friday afternoon. When we got a notification that there was a man wearing all black, wearing a mask on demanding information from an executive assistant in the president's office who just happened to be the only person that was there that day. It was late in the day and we didn't really know what he wanted. We didn't know what was happening. He was demanding records. She was frightened. Security was called. And then we found out that this is what we now know as they call themselves First Amendment auditors, and they call themselves journalists. We were not aware at that time. He had visited another college in our area. But then now we know all about him. So he posted a video, he, he posted a very salacious video. And it resulted in the most hateful and. Disgusting onslaught of messages email social media from his followers. I'm intentionally not naming this channel because they are monetized channels and we don't want to give any attention to them.

[00:02:29] Katherine Hansen: So it was a, it was traumatic for the people that were involved that day as well as the rest of the campus. And what he was asking for was a thing called a public records index, which is a kind of obscure back from like dating back to the seventies in our state, Washington. Which our public records officer and me as the PIO, I mean, we'd never heard of it to be honest.

[00:02:58] Katherine Hansen: We do now and we immediately put together a public records index and notified our colleagues at other colleges that this had happened to us. So that was, the first visit. It happened to be Friday afternoons are generally a quiet time. There's not really classes on campus and because of the.

[00:03:18] Katherine Hansen: The very light snow, but nonetheless snow that had happened. There just weren't very many people on campus to assist this

[00:03:27] Cheryl Broom: So going back to when he first like came on campus, you said that he, he was demanding. Like we, I hear this story and I think, oh, somebody's just come onto campus and they're just politely asking for records. Like how was he acting? What was it like?

[00:03:42] Katherine Hansen: So it starts out, I can, I can tell you more about when I actually talked to him, but it starts out sort of, Hey, I'm here to make a records request. Disguised his face, I mean, he wears a full, I. Mask and gator and sunglasses and a hat, and he has a GoPro mounted to his chest, so he is recording at all times.

[00:04:05] Cheryl Broom: Okay.

[00:04:06] Katherine Hansen: I think in this day and age, it's alarming to see a person like that just walk in. But. It starts out, Hey, I'm here to make a public records request. He approaches a frontline staffer who doesn't necessarily have the answers that he wants or know where to find him. That is his mo. And then what happens is he sort of provokes people to react.

[00:04:33] Katherine Hansen: He wants to provoke a reaction, and unfortunately, he usually gets one. So, we learned a lot from that first visit and we made immediate changes and or education to the campus about it, but the initial assault on people verbally I mean, a lot of the emails or social media posts I couldn't even repeat.

[00:05:03] Katherine Hansen: They contain racist, sexist, vulgar language, and our counsel told us that we could not remove them from our social media. We

[00:05:14] Katherine Hansen: couldn't remove them, we couldn't even hide them.

[00:05:17] Cheryl Broom: so he edited this interaction he had with the staff member, but I'm, I'm assuming that he edited it in a way that wasn't reflective of what actually happened.

[00:05:27] Katherine Hansen: Definitely catches the worst moments intentionally. But his videos are quite long. I mean, the 20 or 30 minutes usually. So, and then they. Include contact information for everyone. And he says, we are not trying to, we don't recommend any type of mass, you know, emails or anything, but that's the effect of what happens from his followers, not him.

[00:05:57] Katherine Hansen: His followers also resulting in repeated multiple additional public information requests.

[00:06:06] Cheryl Broom: Okay,

[00:06:07] Katherine Hansen: We're familiar with and we respond to all the time. Right,

[00:06:11] Cheryl Broom: Well, and I was gonna say, you know, when I fulfilled public information requests at two institutions I worked for and mm-hmm. I can't think of a time that someone came in person to make the request, let alone came with a camera. These requests are usually pretty formal. They're documented, they come through email, so right off the bat, I mean, there's red flags right off the bat.

[00:06:36] Cheryl Broom: Great. So it's interesting your advice of legal counsel. So as a, as someone protecting the brand of the college, I'm sure. You do wanna take things down or flag items for inappropriate content, but you were told to not do that.

[00:06:51] Katherine Hansen: Well, our, our policy at that time said that we could hide comments that were not that were threatening obscene. Things like that. And he didn't believe that those comments fell under that category because what they would do is comment on a post, a great story that we wrote about a successful student, and then they just flood that post.

[00:07:13] Cheryl Broom: Oh

[00:07:14] Katherine Hansen: So they were commenting on posts that were unrelated and repeatedly posting the video.

[00:07:22] Cheryl Broom: right.

[00:07:23] Katherine Hansen: then also posting things that say, you know, you're pro prohibited from removing any of these posts.

[00:07:30] Cheryl Broom: How

[00:07:31] Katherine Hansen: We have changed our policy since then. I can get into

[00:07:33] Cheryl Broom: Oh, that. Okay.

[00:07:34] Katherine Hansen: you like.

[00:07:35] Cheryl Broom: Let's save that because I definitely wanna talk, because I think I have a feeling that people are listening right now and they're asking their self, what is my policy?

[00:07:45] Cheryl Broom: What is our PO and what should be in

[00:07:46] Katherine Hansen: Absolutely.

[00:07:47] Cheryl Broom: Yeah. So let's come back to that. But first I wanna ask. What, how long was it before the visit and the video?

[00:07:54] Cheryl Broom: Like did you realize a video was gonna be made and posted? Were you able to prepare at all?

[00:07:59] Katherine Hansen: So one of the his tactics is he announces when he's gonna be posting his videos

[00:08:06] Cheryl Broom: Okay.

[00:08:07] Katherine Hansen: and they're on a schedule. So. We knew it was coming at a certain particular time. He doesn't tell you when he is coming to see you or talk to you, but he tells his followers when he will be posting them.

[00:08:20] Cheryl Broom: Okay.

[00:08:21] Katherine Hansen: And it was within several days.

[00:08:25] Cheryl Broom: Wow. Okay, so in between that visit and the posting, I'm sure you were able to alert the president and legal counsel and get. Okay. And what's your advice, like for people just listening to this right now that have never heard anything like that? What did you do like, and what would you tell them to do if after that first visit, what's the first thing they need to get moving on?

[00:08:50] Katherine Hansen: Well, I think the important thing for people to know is to not, to not be left unaware. Right? So we found out a lot of things after that first visit, like it's legal to record. Public employees in a public place, even though Washington is a two party consent state as public employees in public spaces, they're allowed to record you.

[00:09:20] Katherine Hansen: We didn't honestly know that. So when people say, I don't give you permission to record me you can't record me, that also elicits more, what's the word snarkiness from him about people not knowing the law. We also made sure that everyone on campus knows who is our public records officer and that it people can request public records.

[00:09:49] Katherine Hansen: In person. That's normally not how people do it, right. But, but they can. So we provided forms for, for people to, if he didn't wanna fill it out himself, to write it down exactly what his request was and to how to get that to the appropriate people at the college to respond to.

[00:10:11] Cheryl Broom: Great. And I mean, you can also have someone like this show up. Under a separate pretense. I mean, they don't necessarily have to be asking for public records. They could be asking for anything and just trying to rage bait people.

[00:10:26] Katherine Hansen: Exactly.

[00:10:27] Cheryl Broom: yeah.

[00:10:28] Katherine Hansen: I think rage bait. What, is that the word of the year or something? I, I do feel like this, when I presented this at our District seven conference, which is Pacific Northwest, basically people from outside of our state, because this person has been active in our state we're familiar with this.

[00:10:45] Katherine Hansen: We've talked about it at our state meetings and other things, but people from outside of the state didn't know. And although some states might have different laws regarding, How particular policies and things like that. These First Amendment oper excuse me, editor. Oh. Auditors operate in every state.

[00:11:05] Katherine Hansen: They're everywhere. And. The First Amendment laws apply everywhere. So I think people need to know what their policies are, who their records officers are, and as we learned from both the first visit and the second visit that we need to teach people to respond calmly and that they don't, you don't have to talk to these people, right?

[00:11:31] Katherine Hansen: You can say, I'll take your request. I have to get back to work now. And, and follow up. But what we found is if he didn't get what he wanted from one person, he'd go to another person and another person.

[00:11:44] Cheryl Broom: He's just waiting. He's just waiting for that one person to get mad.

[00:11:48] Katherine Hansen: which is yes, which is why I intervened. eventually, but it is, it is designed to provoke a reaction from people. I think this particular individual, but in general, from my research that I've done, that's. That is indeed their point,

[00:12:07] Cheryl Broom: Right,

[00:12:08] Katherine Hansen: and they make money by posting these videos on their channels. It's an income source and they want to get as many people to view their videos and click on the ads and all of the things.

[00:12:20] Katherine Hansen: So it is a business for them.

[00:12:24] Cheryl Broom: right. And what a disappointment for the college. Then to see other people jumping on and making these horrible comments and saying these racist and terrible things. You know, you think, oh, this person's operating alone, but there's a whole subset of people out there that like this content and want to be terrible.

[00:12:47] Katherine Hansen: That's right. And there was a another person that was featured in the initial video, we don't get a lot of phone calls anymore. I think in the whole, you know, era, people email or there's Zoom or there's teams, or there's this, our phones don't ring a whole lot. And this person was in a meeting and had 30 phone calls within about 10 minutes.

[00:13:10] Katherine Hansen: So I don't know if it's a coordinated attempt or not. And you know, their story is. Public, right to know. Public servants not responding to what they wanted, but there were comments like, fire this person, this person should be fired. This. And there were comments about their personal appearance and there were comments about their race and there were comments.

[00:13:35] Katherine Hansen: It was, it was unbelievable. I, I, I was, yeah. To me it was just horrible for the people that were involved in it.

[00:13:46] Cheryl Broom: I assume, I don't remember if you covered this at the presentation, but I'm thinking of this poor woman who was the victim of this. Like I'm assuming that the college probably helped, like she would maybe need counseling or some help afterwards,

[00:13:59] Katherine Hansen: we did offer support services to folks that were involved and allowed them different working options for the time. We learned how to actually divert calls. Our tech support helped us divert calls from those folks put out office replies on their emails so that supervisors were checking the emails rather than, so they didn't have to see

[00:14:21] Cheryl Broom: No. I mean, what a terrible work environment. You'd be scared. I mean, I would be scared to sit there out in the open knowing that people were sending and thinking these. Things about me, so, well, I wanna take a quick break and hear from our sponsor, but when we come back, I, I wanna hear about the second visit because this doesn't just stop with one visit.

[00:14:42] Cheryl Broom: So let's take a quick back break and we'll be right back.

[00:14:45] Katherine Hansen: Okay.

[00:14:47] Cheryl Broom: Alright, so before the break, we heard all about the terrible first visit how you responded, and then surprise, another visit happened, not just one, but two. Right? So tell us what, what happened next? I.

[00:15:02] Katherine Hansen: In the intervening time as we were continuing to educate our community, holding staff meetings and providing informational materials about what the laws are and how to respond to these folks. Then a second visit occurred and there were different folks in the office and. Despite all of our educational efforts, some of the information they provided to who to refer people to and how to respond didn't happen as we would've hoped that it would.

[00:15:36] Katherine Hansen: So I went to talk to him. At that point, he was demanding a meeting with the president. He was filed. He wants to, he filed complaints, he filed public records requests about all the interactions that occurred the first time. So I went to talk to him and I said, I'm the PIO for the college. Can I help you?

[00:15:58] Katherine Hansen: He did relate to me a little differently, I will say. And I was trying to not appease him, but try to give him what he needed and have him. Move on. So he, we set a meeting with the president. I, I took his further records requests and, and we talked to him. And then he left that day, the follow up video, because I had been involved in it.

[00:16:26] Katherine Hansen: So I knew what I said to him. I knew how long I spoke to him. It was very much obvious how the. Editing of his videos works because I had been there for quite some time, so I knew what had been said. He did not put my name in there as, so I didn't receive the type of vitriol that the rest of the folks did that day.

[00:16:56] Katherine Hansen: So it was another video. He, he, there's a part of his procedure is then to repeat the stuff from the first video in the follow-up video, right? So it continues that, I don't know a better word for it than assault. Like it's a verbal assault, right? It's not a physical assault, but it, it's a lot. That was in a, the first one was in January 2nd, was in February, and the meeting was scheduled for March.

[00:17:29] Katherine Hansen: So in the meantime, I should also point out that this particular person does not give you his name. He does not. He has a sort of anonymous email address. So there are a lot of ways in which he wants this accountability from the places that he goes,

[00:17:53] Cheryl Broom: Yeah.

[00:17:53] Katherine Hansen: doesn't provide that to us. And legally not obligated to, people can make anonymous public information requests, that's for sure. But It's an interesting sort of paradox of it all.

[00:18:11] Cheryl Broom: Right. Kind of a feeling like, well, the perpetrator's 

[00:18:15] Cheryl Broom: protected, 

[00:18:16] Katherine Hansen: Yes.

[00:18:16] Cheryl Broom: you know, he's protected, but we're out in the open. Yeah.

[00:18:20] Katherine Hansen: I felt like it was important for me to intervene. I think an administrator, I mean, I am on the leadership team for the college, but I'm also, this is what I do for a living. Right. And so I feel like it was. It's important to have someone in a leadership position sort of relieve these frontline staff who might just happen to be there.

[00:18:42] Katherine Hansen: That to the extent that we can protect our staff as well. He does consider himself a journalist, I would say. That, that term is different than, I've never had a journalist just show up on campus without asking me if they could come and arranging interviews or calling me and talking to me on the phone.

[00:19:08] Katherine Hansen: Right. That, so it's, it's a, but this is a whole new world, this whole, right. So, but the second visit was not. As inflammatory as the first, but still there were a few comments that I suppose those people would like to take back. But it's a, it's an ongoing question, question, question, question, question, question, question.

[00:19:37] Katherine Hansen: And then somebody explodes or says something they wish they hadn't. And that's the piece that you see over and over.

[00:19:45] Cheryl Broom: Right, and I mean, that's, this is human behavior. He, he knows how, he knows how to push buttons. I mean, we've all had our buttons pushed. Luckily it's not on camera for.

[00:19:57] Katherine Hansen: Mm. I know there was another college at the time, one of our sister colleges to the south that had been also visited. And they experienced the same kind of things on their social media and their, they went through the same exact things. So we were, comrades and helping each other out through that.

[00:20:23] Katherine Hansen: The colleges that he went to where he said, oh, I'm looking for the public records index, and the person said, here you go. There weren't videos of those. Right. Because that's not, that's not the type of content that

[00:20:42] Cheryl Broom: yeah, that's, that's not, that, that's not a conflict. Right. So, so you were a little bit, a little bit more prepared, but not exactly where you wanted to be. And did he come back another time?

[00:20:55] Katherine Hansen: Yes. So the third time we arranged a meeting the president really said he, that, you know, oh, I should point out another important thing. There's a real difference between public space and private space. So. We, one of the things that we had done was indicate that, so a private office, a classroom, there's no right to record there that's different than a lobby or reception area.

[00:21:21] Katherine Hansen: An auditorium we're having an event, for instance. So we told him that the meeting would be in a private office so that he couldn't record. At that meeting if he wanted us to answer his questions and he, I said, we don't do public business in the lobby. Like that's not how we conduct business. So we will be doing this in a private office.

[00:21:49] Katherine Hansen: And that it was clear that that was not gonna happen. So. A couple other administrators, including our public records officer. We agreed to have a short meeting with him, which started off recording, which started off pretty like, can you tell me this? And have you done that? And it was very, you know, it seemed de amenable, but then amicable, I suppose.

[00:22:14] Katherine Hansen: But then. He started asking questions. One of the records requests that he had made was for all the team's messages from that day.

[00:22:26] Cheryl Broom: Oh, 

[00:22:26] Cheryl Broom: the same 

[00:22:26] Katherine Hansen: that most of us know that our emails are public records. Right. I think in every state for public agencies, I think we know that documents are public records. I think people think of teams sometimes as a chat, you know, like a little chat.

[00:22:42] Katherine Hansen: Those are also public records and while none of those teams were messages were particularly there wasn't anything terrible said about him. There was some, I guess, flippant remarks made. There were some type of LOLs, things like that. So he then proceeded to ask us about every single message that was sent that day, and do you condone this and do you condone that and do you condone that and do you condone that?

[00:23:13] Katherine Hansen: And I finally said, I don't think we need to continue questioning because we're not. Gonna respond to every single one of these messages. That was an important reminder to us to remind our staff that those teams messages, you still need to be professional, discreet. You can't be putting things on teams messages that you wouldn't put in another format because they are disclosable.

[00:23:39] Cheryl Broom: Yes. It reminds me of a, of a reporter back when I was the director of communications at MiraCosta. Reporter had made a public records request for every email in the last two years that had contained certain phrases. And

[00:23:51] Katherine Hansen: We've done that too.

[00:23:52] Cheryl Broom: yeah, you've done that too. It was like, oh shit. Or it was like things that basically.

[00:23:59] Cheryl Broom: Say like, I've done something bad, I've done something wrong, and I had to read all of them before releasing it because you do need to make sure that there's nothing protected in there. And people were talking about personal things that should never have gone an email. And then we had to go back to people and say, we had to release your emails that talked about this in your personal life because it's part of a, a public records request.

[00:24:24] Cheryl Broom: So really good reminder to people.

[00:24:27] Katherine Hansen: Really good reminder. So that, I mean, we do an annual sort of ethics training of course, but it was a good reminder for all of us that. You have to be very aware,

[00:24:38] Cheryl Broom: Yeah. So, so let's go back to where you started and you started talking about some changes that you made. So before the break, you've mentioned some changes to your policy. So what, what happened? What has come out of this experience?

[00:24:52] Katherine Hansen: So the, the an important thing is putting up those signs that say, this is private only authorized personnel. We put up signs. 

[00:25:00] Cheryl Broom: Can you put 'em everywhere? 

[00:25:02] Katherine Hansen: throughout campus in, in well traveled areas. Like for instance, our office is the foundation and communications and marketing.

[00:25:11] Katherine Hansen: We have a lot of people coming in there, so they can't go into our, say, private kitchen right. Or our, that area. So there's a sign there, there's, 

[00:25:21] Cheryl Broom: the sign say again? What? What do you have on it?

[00:25:23] Katherine Hansen: it says, this space is. For staff only or authorized personnel only. And then we, through our, my office and in consultation with ir, legal counsel, we did revise our social media policy that we can hide comments.

[00:25:44] Katherine Hansen: We can't delete them. But that means no one else can see 'em except the person that posted 'em. We can hide comments on social media if they're made, if they're unrelated to the post.

[00:25:56] Cheryl Broom: Okay.

[00:25:57] Katherine Hansen: So we have to save them all in our state. We have to save them all as a matter of an extension of our. Public records, but we can hide those comments.

[00:26:09] Katherine Hansen: And so that has been a very important change that we made. It helps in other situations too, where somebody, you know, we write a story about a big fun event and then someone goes, oh, you know. Whatever, something unrelated that maybe is not even related to the college. So we, we've done that. And then the most important part is like educating the community about how to respond to these people.

[00:26:39] Katherine Hansen: I have also recommended, and other colleges might do differently that we don't. That you don't have to engage. You know, it's okay for a staff member to say, I'm not authorized to speak about this. I need to contact a supervisor or call me or you know, call the public records officer or call who, whoever in administration can help you that you don't have to continue to engage with them.

[00:27:12] Katherine Hansen: And when we had that sit down with him, it was long, it was a long sit down and it. Did not. The reason that I encouraged us to do it was to hopefully put an end to this, put a period to this, and to spare our staff further visits. It did not, it wasn't the, the video wasn't as bad as the others because we were answering as questions, but it did not do much to quell his followers.

[00:27:45] Katherine Hansen: So. We probably would not do that again. There have been several visits to other colleges where people are very helpful and, and gracious and say, oh, here's what you need, or The person that you need is out today, but I will take your request. And it goes very well. And, and then he'll wander around and find someone else.

[00:28:11] Cheryl Broom: Right.

[00:28:12] Katherine Hansen: And just to try to, again, provoke a response. Another college, the president sent out an email to the campus, which we've all done, and explained what had happened, and then somebody forwarded that email to him. So he came back to that particular college and followed the president, found her in the parking lot and followed her, asking her about her email. So again, you never know where this stuff is gonna go. Her E, there was really nothing wrong with her email, but he did not like how he was described in it. So,

[00:28:53] Cheryl Broom: So this also reminds me for, for people listening, we, I did a podcast with a woman last year. Her name's Stephanie Craig, and I think it's episode 54. It's Crisis Communications, and she recommends that. In cabinet or in work groups that you tabletop exercises like this? I think she actually calls 'em oh shit Exercises where, where you just bring, you're not prepared and you just bring something.

[00:29:20] Cheryl Broom: Katherine brings like, boom, this is scenario, how do we deal with it? And that does help prevent some of the things like having to send out emails, you know, like.

[00:29:30] Katherine Hansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:31] Cheryl Broom: On certain events because you've prepared for all these different events, so,

[00:29:36] Katherine Hansen: Well, and I think we're all used to dealing in our, in our positions with crises, right? Things happen whether it is an incident on campus or some sort of bad behavior by somebody or whatever, and you get calls from the press and you have to learn how we have a policy on crisis communications, right?

[00:29:55] Katherine Hansen: We have a policy on media relations. But those people that are approached who happen to be at the desk that he goes to, they're not that, that's not their job. They're not necessarily trained to do that, so we wanna make sure that we're there to support them. Right. And those tabletop exercises we do quite a bit, but not something like this that was unexpected.

[00:30:21] Cheryl Broom: Yeah. It's always the crisis and people crises that we're not prepared for. I feel like colleges have done such a good job preparing for, you know, random snow days or power outages 

[00:30:33] Cheryl Broom: or earthquakes,

[00:30:34] Katherine Hansen: Right? 

[00:30:35] Cheryl Broom: it's these people inspired crises. Because there's, they're random and, and we can't predict them at all, but we still need to think about what would we do and how will we prepare.

[00:30:48] Katherine Hansen: And I think that's the point of all of this, of my making these presentations at the conference, is to educate people about this because it. It could happen anywhere. It probably has. I should say that this, this particular person is not limited only to colleges. I mean, he's been to school districts and fire districts and all kinds of different things.

[00:31:12] Katherine Hansen: You've probably seen those on social media where someone's just standing on a public street filming. Doing nothing. But people come out and say, what are you doing? Why are you here? And they're like, I'm just looking around. I'm just, and I understand why it is so uncomfortable. Nobody wants to be filmed without their permission.

[00:31:31] Katherine Hansen: But when those folks then engage themselves, then it is going to be. Most likely not good for them if they're right. So you see those I, I'm sure everybody has seen videos like that some places on social media. These are particularly geared toward public agencies.

[00:31:56] Cheryl Broom: Well, Katherine, this has just been such a great podcast. I mean, your story, it, it really hits home of, of why, why we need someone on campus to. To be in charge of this, to be in charge of records, to make sure that we're ready for crises. and I think you've given some really valuable tips. If people want to get in touch with you other colleges and hear more, how, how can they get in in touch with you?

[00:32:24] Katherine Hansen: You can email me or anytime I'm happy to answer questions.

[00:32:28] Cheryl Broom: Great. I will put your email in the show notes and your college name obviously, And I Are you speaking at any more conferences this year?

[00:32:35] Katherine Hansen: Maybe. I'm not sure yet.

[00:32:37] Cheryl Broom: Okay. Well if you are a community college marketer going to a conference, look out for Katherine's name 'cause it's a great presentation and I've learned a lot both from your presentation and from our conversation today.

[00:32:49] Katherine Hansen: All right. Thank you so much. yes, please reach out if anyone has questions. I'm happy to share our policies and all